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From:
To: Laurie Schmidt < SchmidtL@gc.adventist.org >
Cc: Hensley Moorooven < mooroovenh@gc.adventist.org >
Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 7:28 pm
Subject: To Laurie Schmidt ( # 110 ) – I sent e-mail to Hensley Moorooven and he referred me to you sixteen months ago – about an issue that is over seven years old
Message # 110
November 5, 2023
Dear Laurie Schmidt:
It is more than seven years since the Church Board at Mt. Moriah Church rejected my request to join and I have been trying to find out WHY. It could even be racial discrimination but the local conference, the union conference, the NAD ignore all my efforts to find out why, and don’t care if it is racial discrimination. I sent an e-mail to Hensley Moorooven on June 21, 2022 and got a quick response from him. He gave me your name and e-mail address and said you will direct me to the appropriate desk. October 21st was exactly one year and four months ago and I have sent one hundred – nine ( 109 ) previous messages to you. You are probably familiar with this ‘Auto Reply’ but I have pasted it below.
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-----Original Message-----
From: Moorooven, Hensley < MooroovenH@gc.adventist.org >
To:
Sent: Tues, Jun 21, 2022 1:59 am
Subject: Automatic reply: To Hensley Moorooven ( # 246 ) – Saw you at GC Session. This is 83rd time I ask you same question about Karnik’s reply.
Thank you for your email. I am taking a few days off and will have limited time and access to the internet. If your message is time-sensitive, please send an email to my Assistant, Laurie Schmidt – SchmidtL@gc.adventist.org and she will direct you to the appropriate desk.
May you enjoy your walk with the Lord.
The King is coming VERY soon!
Sincerely,
Hensley .
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I hoped he will return to his desk soon so I sent a copy of Message # 18 to him. I expected to get a similar ‘Autoreply’ with instead of “taking a few days off” it may give his expected return date. I also expect he will be swamped with important church business that has accumulated in the past year and he may still want you to direct me to the right person and I am sure he will be happy when he hears that you have. I did not get an “AutoReply” message to my 18th message or 19th or 20th or 21st or 22nd or 23rd or 24th (sent in August >) 25th or 26th or 27th or 28th or 29th or 30th or 31st or 32nd or 33rd or 34th or 35th or 36th or 37th or 38th or 39th or 40th or 41st or 42nd (Sent in September >) or 43rd or 44th or 45th or 46th or 47th or 48th or 49th or 50th or 51st or 52nd (sent in October ) or 53rd or 54th or 55th or 56th or 57th or 58th or 59th or 60th or 61st(sent on November 2), or 62nd or 63rd or 64th or 65th or 66th (sent in December ) or 67th or 68th or 69th or 70th or 71st or 72nd or 73rd ( sent in January); or 74th or 75th or 76th or 77th or 78th or 79th or 80th or 81st or 82nd or 83rd or 84th or 85th or 86th or 87th (sent in March) or 88th or 89th ( sent in April ) or 90th or 91st or 92nd or 93rd (sent in May or 94th or 95th or 96th or 97th or 98th or 99th or 100th or 101st or 102nd or 104th or 105th or 106th or 107th or 108th or the 109th e-mail so please tell me if he has returned? Surely he has returned to his desk in the last year. You can at least tell me if he has returned
Previous messages informed you that in September 2018, Hensley Moorooven referred my complaint of non-compliance to Karnik Doukmetzian, General Counsel. Here is a copy of his e-mail he sent me over five years ago
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From: Moorooven, Hensley [mailto: MooroovenH@gc.adventist.org ]
Sent: Friday, September 7, 2018 6:05 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Hensley Moorooven ( # 85 ) - Week 3 of Third complaint of non-Compliance at Ridgewood Church
Please, don’t write to me, Brother
Attorney Doukmetzian, Karnik is the person you need to write to. PLEASE!
Thank you,
Hensley
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I had previously sent three complaints of non-compliance to Hensley Moorooven because he was Secretary of ‘Unity of Mission Oversight Committee’ and I asked him why a GC lawyer was more appropriate to deal with non-compliance than his committee was? His next response was four months later.
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From: Moorooven, Hensley [mailto: MooroovenH@gc.adventist.org ]
Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 11:06 AM
To:
Subject: Re: To Hensley Moorooven ( # 101 ) - Issue # 2 - Non-compliance by Ridgewood Church - they have become spiritually dead
Dear Brother,
Your 1001th e-mail is well received. As I’ve being telling you for some months now, I have been forwarding your messages to our Legal Counsel. Please feel free to contact Advocate Karnik Doukmetzian.
Blessings
Hensley
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He did not answer that question and I did not ‘feel free to contact’ a lawyer about non-compliance issues until he explained why a lawyer was needed for a policy compliance issue.
However, when I complained about ‘racial discrimination’ by Mt. Moriah church, I was then more comfortable about talking to a lawyer about ‘racial discrimination’ then talking to a lawyer about non-compliance issues. So I asked for Karnik’s e-mail address in March 2019. Please allow me point out something in the reply he sent me on January 3, 2019 (pasted above) . . .
Notice in January four years ago, he wrote, “I have been forwarding your messages to our Legal Counsel” so since Message # 85 was the first time he mentioned Karnik, and he was forwarding my messages, therefore, in January his response to Message # 101 means he forwarded at least 16 messages to Karnik.
On Feb. 28, 2019 he responded to message # 112 with “Please, please write to Advocate Karnik Doukmetzian? so add 11 more messages to the 16 Hensley sent to him. On April 30th Mr. Moorooven responded to Message # 130 giving me Karnik’s e-mail address; that adds 18 more for a total of 45 messages forwarded to Karnik.
On April 30, 2019 I sent a letter to Karnik about the ‘racial discrimination’ issue. Karnik took five months to respond, and his response was to my message # 161 to Hensley Moorooven . . .
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---- Original Message -----
From: Doukmetzian, Karnik
To:
Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 5:39 AM
To: Moorooven, Hensley
Subject: Re: To Hensley Moorooven ( # 161 ) - Five months and still counting - On the Brink of a compliant to NY State agencies of Racial discrimination by Mt. Moriah church
I told you years ago I would not engage with you and this has not changed. If you still have an issue with the local congregation or the conference that is the place to deal with it, that is your recourse. Rest assured, Mr. Moorooven has not been lax. We at the General Conference will not intervene in a matter that is the purview of the local congregation or local conference. I suggest you do the same.
Karnik
Karnik Doukmetzian
General Counsel
General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists
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Notice his response was to remind me that years before he told me he would not talk to me and so I assume he decided to respond with “silence” (yes, silence is a response) for five months. If you watched the congressional hearing on July 28th 2022, Adam Kinzinger said “Trump did not fail to act, he chose not to act.” Therefore, assuming Mr. Moorooven was doing what he said and forwarding my messages to Karnik, Karnik chose not to respond. |
Here is the interesting part, when Karnik did not respond promptly I sent 31 more messages between April 30th and Oct. 1st – this adds up to 76 messages forwarded by Mr. Moorooven to Karnik. To support this, please look at the Oct. 1, 2019 reply from Karnik, he did not reply to the letter I sent him in April, the subject line shows: Re: To Hensley Mooroven (# 161) – Five months and still counting His reply was to a message I did not send him, it must have come from Hensley Moorooven ( #161 is one of the 31 additional messages, telling him I did what he asked and did not get a response). Look again at Karnik’s message to me, he sent a copy of it to Hensley Moorooven, probably because “Mr. Moorooven has not been lax” in forwarding my messages to Karnik. However, he is lax in dealing with the question I sent him over four years. November 1st was exactly 49 months after Karnik’s reply which means I have been asking Hensley the same question for 49 months.
Karnik could have sent the same reminder “I told you years ago . . .” in May 2019 but he didn’t. I think these 76 messages from Hensley Moorooven is what persuaded Karnik to actually respond to me, even if just to remind me that he previously said he would not respond to me. Silence may work sometimes, but it is not a good strategy when dealing with someone who is blessed with persistence and perseverance. Remember the story of the unjust judge in Luke 18.
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"The judge who is here pictured had no regard for right, nor pity for suffering. The widow who pressed her case before him was persistently repulsed. Again and again she came to him, only to be treated with contempt, and to be driven from the judgment seat. The judge knew her case was righteous, and he could have relieved her at once, but he would not. He wanted to show his arbitrary power, and it gratified him to let her ask and plead and entreat in vain. But she would not fail or become discouraged. Notwithstanding his indifference and hardheartedness, she pressed her petition until the judge consented to attend to her case. “Though I fear not God, nor regard man,” he said, “yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.” To save his reputation, to avoid giving publicity to his partial, one-sided judgment, he avenged the persevering woman.”
Christ’s Object Lessons, page 164 par. 3
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Here is a quote from a more modern source, Babe Ruth, the Yankee, Baseball player who was MVP before they named Most Valuable Players, he said, “It is hard to beat a person who never gives up.”
It seems that Hensley Moorooven did not anticipate Karnik would refuse to deal with me and not address the issues he referred to Karnik in September 2018. I also assume that Karnik did not tell him of his ‘vow of silence’ regarding me. So I returned to Hensley Moorooven the same day that Karnik responded, this time with questions about Karnik’s response. Karnik refused to deal with the issues even after Mr. Moorooven sent many messages to him. But after 76 messages, Karnik changed his position and responded. He wrote, “I told you years ago I would not engage with you” – It seems that Hensley Mooroven does not have a ‘Plan B’ to deal with the issue he referred to Karnik? It appears that there is a process to resolve the non-compliance issues but an unwillingness to do it; and regarding complaints of ‘racial discrimination’ by a local church, Karnik says there is no one willing to deal with it. As sad as this sounds, I hope Karnik was just trying to discourage me and there are people at the General Conference who think ‘racial discrimination’ grieves God and should be dealt with. I really hope Karnik is wrong and there are people at the GC who will respond and Hensley Moorooven says you are the person who can direct me to the right desk. But you have not responded to 109 messages.
But refusing to deal with the issue was not all Karnik wrote, he actually did engage with me when he commented about Mr. Moorooven who referred me to him and also his comment about his colleagues at the General Conference. Therefore, my first question to Hensley Moorooven, was if he was part of the “we at the general conference” that will not get involved with a matter of racial discrimination. He has not responded in 49 months and in that time I have asked Hensley Moorooven this same question 83 times. This is the 110th time I have contacted you about the same question The message that got the automatic reply was the only response I received, after I sent 83 e-mails asking the same question. It is now over four years and one month (since Oct. 1, 2019). Adding the 110 messages to you, gives a total of 193 messages about the same thing without a reply, except the one on June 21, 2022 (shown above). I have started contacting other people at GC in addition to you.
On Sept. 8, 2020 ( over three years ago ) the President of Atlantic Union Conference sent me this. . .
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From: Gladstone Knight [mailto: gladdyek@aol.com ]
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 8:20 AM
To:
Subject: Re: To Earl Knight ( # 405 ) - New developments regarding Mt. Moriah church - Pierre is not responding so I come to you
Good morning
From time to time church members will have issues with the local church or even the conference. The best way to deal with any issue that occurs in the church, is to resolve it at the local level. That means the local church or conference.
You may have a reasonable concern, however please refer it to the local conference.
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. . . and I showed this to the local church and the Northeastern conference leaders along with the message from Karnik. The Ministerial Director of NEC wanted me to return to the GC, however, I knew what Karnik wrote in Oct. 2019, so I asked Pastor Joseph to put his decision in writing, but he refused. The next 325 messages were left on his office and on his cell phone, and he did not answer and he did not respond. So I did what he said and returned to Hensley Moorooven.
This paragraph is not in messages # 1 to # 7. I am adding this paragraph to make it easy for you, because you may not know if Hensley Moorooven will consider a complaint of ‘racial discrimination’ and this may be the reason you have not responded to my last one hundred nine ( . 109 .) e-mails since Hensley Moorooven sent me to you over thirteen months ago. It may be easier if you can refer me to someone at the GC who will respond to the question prompted by what Karnik wrote, “we at the general conference will not intervene” in cases of ‘racial discrimination’ – although Karnik (as the top lawyer) is authorized to speak for the GC, it would be very sad if Karnik does actually speak for everyone at the GC. He did not say the General Conference will not intervene which is what a spokesperson might say. Karnik wrote, “we at the general conference will not intervene” which sounds personal rather than official. I thought church policy was against racial discrimination, so I ask, does Karnik's reply represent a change in church policy? The new policy could be silence, but is that a change in policy.
Karnik mentions Hensley Moorooven by name (and even sent a copy of reply to him) so I started with Hensley Moorooven, and in this message, I list other people at the General Conference who I have already contacted with this question. Their silence implies Karnik is correct. However, what encouraged me so much about the reply from Hensley Moorooven is that he said you “will direct me to the appropriate desk” and I hope there is a desk in your building where someone deals with ‘racial discrimination’ – so I started with Hensley Moorooven which is better than contacting people randomly. Racial discrimination is a huge issue, they even created six Regional Conferences in the NAD to deal with it. My complaint is that a black church rejected a request to join from a white person and will not give a reason for rejecting me. So I hope the ‘appropriate desk’ is more than just one desk at the General Conference. The appropriate desk should be the desk of someone who does not have strong feeling against me that he or she cannot set aside for the good of the church, and it should be someone who will uphold the ‘Unity in Mission’ policy of the church. If Karnik is correct and NOT one person at the General Conference will respond to a complaint of racial discrimination than direct me to someone who will modify what Karnik said, and say, Yes the buck stops here, but the General Conference will not intervene in matters of radical discrimination. The person who is willing to say that, may be the appropriate desk for you to send me to.
The Church Manual is against the practice of racial discrimination, I think the ‘Unity in Mission’ policy says it more clearly than the Church Manual and I believe the church does care about ‘racial discrimination’ the problem is they don’t know what to do. In the NAD there are six Regional Conferences, and in every regional conference territory, there is a state conference also. This means there are two conferences covering much of the territory in the United States, and sometimes there are conflict between two conference operating within the same territory. This is one of the issues I brought to Hensley Moorooven in 2018 and it is still not resolved. But Karnik did not respond to that issue, he responded to Message # 161 sent to Hensley about Racial discrimination.
I think Karnik is wrong on this point, and there may be people who do not agree with Karnik’s statement about “we at the general conference will not intervene” and there are many desks that you can refer me to. So I hope you will respond rather than me contacting people at random. If Karnik’s statement means that it is church policy NOT to deal with racial discrimination, than I am looking to see if there could be enough people willing to change church policy to be in harmony with what Karnik says. The Church Manual and ‘Unity in Mission Statement’ and other statements should be in harmony.
Therefore, the best help you could give me is to refer me to someone who will actually get involved with a complaint of ‘racial discrimination’ and hopefully that person can help to get the NAD, or the Atlantic Union Conference or the local conference to ask the church to answer the key question. Why did they reject my request to join? I attended this church for two years before requesting to join it, I supported them financially, and supported their programs and ministries, I feel I deserve an answer to the question why did they reject my request to join.
The NAD has made clear their position against racial discrimination, but they will not respond to my request for help. I cite a News article on Aug. 26th 2020 as one example . . .
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“Today, we take a stand against racism. Today, we commit to stand up against injustice. Today, we commit to be the voice of those who do not have one. Today, we commit to do what God requires of us: “to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly” (Micah 6:8, NRSV)
Today, we commit ourselves to be God’s agents of positive change for a better, more equitable tomorrow.”
Article Aug. 26, 2020: https://www.nadadventist.org/news/gods-agents-positive-change
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This video published on the NAD website in June 2020 with the top three leaders in North America admit there is a problem of racial discrimination in the church and I assume you are aware of what they say about regional conferences. Here is URL for this video . . https://www.nadadventist.org/news/conversation-racism-and-adventism-nad-leadership -- Video is 58 minutes, part about regional conferences starts at 8 min 25 sec.
25 minutes into the video Randy Robinson says, “Not every white person will be welcome in a black conference” and he points to official church statements on race and unity voted by a GC Session. “The problem is how to get people to follow up on these ideas.” Three years later on May 28th ( over one month ago ) there was a ‘cross burning’ at a Greater New York Conference Camp Meeting ( at Camp Berkshire ) and the organizers did not apologize, they called the ‘cross-burning’ and act of worship. I have asked conference, union conference and NAD leaders what is the policy regarding ‘cross-burning’ as an act of worship? Rick Remmers replied on July 5th to say that there is no policy in the GC or the NAD regarding ‘cross-burning’ on church property. Does this mean the NAD does not take a stand or that they did not imagine anyone at a conference would allow ‘cross-burnings’ on church property.
October 8th was exactly seven years since the church board’s written rejection letter. I don’t think they will admit rejection of my membership request was racial discrimination, so any answer that does not show racial bias is better than silence but their refusal to answer my question with an honest answer puts racial discrimination on the table.
The Northeastern Conference website clearly says the conference was organized to serve Negro members. I didn’t catch that until after the church board rejected my request to join. I prefer to deal with this within the church, but since I am not a Negro I can go to the NY State Attorney General’s office of Discrimination, and point to the conference website, I am sure one question they would ask the church is why did they reject Mario’s request to join? This is another example that silence is not the best policy, because it will not go well for them to remain silent when the state investigation my complaint asks this same question, I am sure the state will ask this key question.
You did not respond to Message # 8 – which informed you the message I sent to Hensley Moorooven contains names of people who work at General Conference that I have already asked. So this message will make it even easier for you to respond. Here is a list of people at the General Conference who I have already asked if they were part of the “we at the general conference” – I copied this list from the message to Hensley Moorooven that I sent on June 21st and pasted it here.
“In June 2020, I started asking other leaders at the General Conference if they were part of the “We” that Karnik spoke about. One message to Hensley Moorooven included a copy of my message to Michael Ryan. Who responded to me, however he told me he had retired in 2015 and I apologized but showed him his name on the Adventist Yearbook as Assistant to Ted Wilson. I questioned how he could be retired and still be Assistant to the President? I am still waiting for his response. I have also asked Jeffrey Mbwamba, Artur Stele, Abner De los Santos, Gerson Santos, Elbert Kuhn, John Thomas, Karen Porter, Claude Richli, Gary Krause, Lowell Cooper, Lissy Park and Raymond Wahlen. Only John Thomas responded, but that was to inform me that he had retired, and his name has been removed from the Yearbook. So the Yearbook was updated in the last five years to remove his name, but they did not remove Mike Ryan’s name (who claims he retired in 2015). None of the others have responded at all. I even saw Mike Ryan had an important role at the GC Session.”
If you can think of one name of someone that would get involved with a complaint of racial discrimination, I am willing to go to them. I hope you can think of someone who I have not yet contacted, but you can refer me to one of the people I have already contacted and I will try again.
The ‘automatic reply’ was very encouraging to me for other reasons. Praise the Lord that Hensley responded, even if it was a general response. One reason is the fact that Karnik does not report to Hensley Moorooven, but you do. So when he wrote that you would “direct [me] to the appropriate desk” it is probably because he has left these instructions with you before he left. Karnik was not able to put aside his personal feelings about me and handle the issues I brought to him, not even when Mr. Moorooven forwarded 76 e-mails to him with information about the issues. Karnik does not report to him and thus, he did not have to deal with my issues which he made quite clear in his response.
Another reason I am encouraged is because Mr. Moorooven’s reply addressed any issue that was “time sensitive” and certainly a 49 month delay should be enough to make any issue time sensitive. To keep someone waiting that long for an answer to a simple question should also make it time sensitive, and to keep someone waiting who complains about a violation of the civil laws regarding ‘racial discrimination’ should qualify as time sensitive. Even a pointed question like “are you part of the we at the General Conference that will not intervene” in matters of racial discrimination. Praise the Lord, that Karnik opened the door to this question when he wrote “we at the General Conference” – because his position as the top lawyer gives him the authority to speak for the General Conference. I am hoping that he has overreached this time by mistake, and he does not speak for everyone regarding racial discrimination. Also, as I pointed out, Karnik knows how to word decisions and make policy statements, “we at the General Conference” sounds personal, he did not say – The General Conference does not intervene, this important difference encourages me to contact others.
I am thankful to God for the response from Karnik because the top lawyer at GC made a statement that engages me after telling me he will not engage with me. Maybe God overruled even when he stated his intention was not to engage me. I am also thankful to God for the response from Mr. Moorooven more than sixteen months ago and I am very much encouraged and looking forward to your reply. I hope you can see the Lord working here. I hope you agree that any local conference website that says we were organized to serve Negro members could be an embarrassment to the whole church. (see Unity in Mission Statement) the time has come for regional conferences (organized for Negro members) to NOW open up to non-Negros.
Karnik also wrote, “Rest assured, Mr. Moorooven has not been lax” however, it has been hard to remain ‘assured’ that Mr. Moorooven has not been lax, and every month he ignores the non-compliance issues and ignores my simple question, makes me less and less ‘assured’ that he is not lax. There is another possible meaning to what Karnik wrote, he may have said this because Hensley Moorooven was not lax in forwarding my messages to him, so after 76 messages, Karnik decided to respond to me to remind me that he would not respond to me.
October 1, 2019 was four years and one month ( 49 months ago ) since Karnik’s reply, to the e-mail I sent him on April 30th 2019 (which is more than 4 years and six months ago) how much assurance did he think his words would give, does it make sense for me to continue resting on this assurance? We are to take the word of Christ as our assurance
Take the word of Christ as your assurance. Has he not invited you to come unto Him? Never allow yourself to talk in a hopeless, discouraged way. If you do you will lose much. By looking at appearances and complaining when difficulties and pressure come, you give evidence of a sickly, enfeebled faith. Talk and act as if your faith was invincible. The Lord is rich in resources. He owns the world. Look heavenward in faith. Look to Him who has light and power and efficiency. Christ’s Object Lessons, page 146, par. 5 |
I have confidence in the word of Christ as my assurance, compared to the confidence in the words of Karnik whose assurance is proving to be worthless. However, it is possible that when Karnik wrote “Rest assured, Mr. Moorooven has not been lax” he refers to Hensley forwarding all 76 e-mails I sent to him, but his reply was not clear about this point. Clarity is something one would expect from the top lawyer, and that he give a clear response and maybe I need someone to talk to Karnik and ask him to put aside his personal feeling about me and do his duty, for the good of the entire church.
To be honest, part of me was hoping that the GC Session at St. Louis would replace Hensley Moorooven with someone else who may be willing to deal with issues of non-compliance (since he was secretary of the Unity in Mission Oversight Committee) made by a church board that rendered a written decision in October 2016 which said, “We are aware that you have some concerns regarding how policy and procedure were followed by Manhattan SDA and how policy and procedure relate to your request for membership now. However, we do not wish to discuss this matter further.” They were aware of questions about Manhattan Church not following church policy and did not care if they followed proper procedure themselves. Their refusal to discuss this matter further along with the pastor telling me not to come back to his church or he will call the police, made me think it is more than just willful ignorance of policy but a case of racial discrimination.
It is important enough to say again. The church board knew about my claim that Manhattan Church had violated church policy and the fundamental rights given to members, but did not care what happened enough to talk to me; and they did not care what church policy said about proper procedure regarding my request to join their church. The church board’s rejection letter was dated October 8, 2016. One thing is obvious, they have been true to their word and refused to talk about this for more than seven years. Even though I now claim racial discrimination could have been involved with their decision; I still prefer to resolve this within the church rather than make a complaint of ‘racial discrimination’ to the NY State Attorney General’s office of Discrimination. However, the local conference, the Union Conference cannot get them to talk to me in a meaningful way. The NAD ignores my appeals and when I brought this to the Unity in Mission Oversight Committee (where Mr. Moorooven is the secretary) he referred me to Karnik, who will not talk to me no matter what the issue or who referred it to him, even with 76 messages from Hensley to Karnik about the issues.
I considered it an answer to prayer when Hensley Moorooven referred me to you and said that you will direct me to the appropriate desk. I followed the GC Session and learned the names of two new VPs of General Conference, Maurice Valentine and Audrey Andersson. It is possible that Karnik did not think of them as “we” in 2019 when he said “we at the General Conference” will not interfere regarding racial discrimination. I was also thinking of bring this matter to the Executive Secretary or to Ted Wilson himself. So I have renewed hope that you can direct me to the appropriate desk rather than me contacting all of them.
Thank you for your help. There is more information in the message I sent to Hensley Moorooven on Tuesday, June 21st 2022 ( more than sixteen months ago ). Of course, I am willing to answer any questions you may have that will help you to direct me to the right person. Please tell me when Mr. Moorooven returns to his desk, but until then, I am praying that the Lord will guide you in this matter.
In God We Trust
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